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magna68
♡ 11 ( +1 | -1 )
Has Topa totally lost it? According to this ... yes!
-> www.chessninja.com
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ganstaman
♡ 83 ( +1 | -1 )
Well of course it would be like that there. That's one of the most anti-Topalov sites I've seen ever since the WC match.
But look back at the history of what Russians have done or been accused of doing to ensure the player they want to win something wins it. And then tell Topalov that his opponent is going to the bathroom very often, the only place with no camera, but a wire was found in the ceiling (and don't even bother explaining why there would be a wire legitimately in the ceiling).
Before the match he was confident, but now Kramnik is making strong moves. For someone without a strong personality, you can easily convince them that they are being cheated. And it's really not that hard to believe, either (though I personally don't think Kramnik cheated at all).
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magna68
♡ 42 ( +1 | -1 )
ganstaman "Well of course it would be like that there. That's one of the most anti-Topalov sites I've seen ever since the WC match. "
What do you mean by that ganstaman? Would his blather make more sense in US Today or Newsweek? Don't think so.
The rest of your post you use trying to justify his accusations, even if you admit in the end that you don't believe he's right. Don't really understand where you are going.
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ganstaman
♡ 41 ( +1 | -1 )
I haven't looked for this interview elsewhere yet. But do you know if anyone other than that site has this interview? He is rather biased, so I'd want a reputable source before judging anyone.
It's actually not to hard to understand why someone thinks something without agreeing with it yourself. I don't think Kramnik was cheating. However, I can understand why Topalov could believe Kramnik was cheating.
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bucklehead
♡ 68 ( +1 | -1 )
Mig? Biased? As a longtime (and indeed, daily) reader of Mig Greengard's "Daily Dirt" chess blog, I can tell you that he was entirely in Toppy's corner prior to Toiletgate. Like many of us, though, he found himself feeling somewhat different around the time of Game 5. In fact, unless I am mistaken, Mig was very much one of those "Kramnik has no legitimate claim" kinda guys.
It's not like Daily Dirt made it up. Follow the link on his page ( -> www.abc.es ) and you can see the interview in the original Spanish.
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magna68
♡ 49 ( +1 | -1 )
In the first line of the article is the original source of the article i.e, the major Spanish daily ABC and a link to it...
"The major Spanish daily ABC has a long interview with Veselin Topalov by Federico Marin Bellon, apparently done after Topalov lost the final blindfold game with Judit Polgar in Bilbao (he had already clinched the match)."
I understand it can be hard to believe that Topalov really made some of those comments, but sadly it looks all to be true.
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ganstaman
♡ 61 ( +1 | -1 )
Ah, well that shows that I was serious when I say I didn't look for the article elsewhere yet. I had scrolled down to the interview rather quickly in the provided link.
As for his bias, I admit I only started looking at that site when the game 5 fiasco began. Since then, I haven't seen him say anything good about Topalov (could be because everyone only links to that site when there's something bad to say).
Still doesn't change my ability to understand what was going through Topalov's head. You don't have to be insane to believe these things.
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sayb
♡ 105 ( +1 | -1 )
no You certainly don't. I've always been suspicious of Kramnik. I've had thoughts about him along these lines a long time ago during the match with Kasparov. But I don't think he cheated against Kaspy. Against Topalov however.. I'm 50/50 on it. Topalov DOESN'T sound like a crazy man to me.
It's one of those things in the world where if you speak your mind about what's really obvious you look like a bigot or a close-minded looney. I'm sorry that ganstaman had to suffix his post with the "though I personally don't think Kramnik cheated at all" disclaimer to avoid flames here.
It's not hard to imagine russians doing something like this. What is Kasparov campaigning against after all? He's recently had his headquarters ambushed by russian police and turned upsidedown with a FAKE warrant. Is it a far cry from that to send a few chess moves electronically (maybe with a wireless device in Kramnik's tooth or ear) to protect a title they've always been willing to go to extreme and illegal measures to protect in the past?
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bucklehead
♡ 92 ( +1 | -1 )
To be fair... ...I can't conclusively rule out the possibility that Kramnik was receiving moves, or that the Russian government exercised some control over the outcome. I simply think that the Topalov team failed to meet its burden of proof. Indeed, they have offered no proof at all...and yet they still have their defenders. I'm fine with people being in Toppy's camp--let's just argue this thing logically.
For my part, the play at the chessboard more than trumps strange bathroom-visitation patterns or unidentified cables found in ceilings (where's Kramnik's USB port, anyway?). Both those guys played some shoddy chess, and a computer would have smacked them around but good. Are we alleging that the Russians are so powerful as to have concealed a cable and telepathic-transmission apparatus but not sharp enough to get the latest version of Rybka?
sayb
♡ 55 ( +1 | -1 )
well one possibility is that he made some moves on his own and used the computer for some.. he could easily have made some intentional mistakes in order to make it all seem real.
topalov's team claims that they witnessed evidence.. but to be honest.. a cable in a ceiling is pretty stupid proof.. definitely an embarassment that topalov cites that as proof.
i still lean more in the direction that kramnik cheated. but that "proof" was really lame.. and slightly pushes me over to the kramnik camp
yanm
♡ 94 ( +1 | -1 )
conspiracy theory here we are In a true sophism fashion, I cannot totally rule out out that Kramnik cheated. On the other
hand, I cannot also conclusively say that Topalov/Dainalov haven't totally lost their marbles...
But in what I actually believe is that Kramnik didn't cheat and that Topalov is a real weirdo but
saddly I don't have any conclusive proof.
sayb "one possibility is that he made some moves on his own and used the computer for
some.. he could easily have made some intentional mistakes in order to make it all seem
real." I think that this is really the kind of comment that Topalov's team could have done. And
isn't it called 'building a castle out of thin air' or something like that? Just kidding :D
cheers, yanm
ionadowman
♡ 70 ( +1 | -1 )
Well, yeah... ... If you want to make some deliberate mistake in order "lend verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative" concerning the authenticity of one's moves, overlooking a mate in two seems a bit extreme.
Reminds me of Olympias's hystrionic grief at the funeral of her assassinated husband, Philip II of Macedonia. "She seemed to be afraid the people would think her innocent" was the mordant comment of an observer.
Maybe something of the sort was at work here - Vlad letting Topa know he's cheating - but retaining enough "plausible deniability" to make Topa look bad if he kicked up a fuss.
Do I believe it? Is the Pope a Buddhist? It seems to me that a whole lot of people are reaching for any old stick to beat the Russians with. As usual.
Cheers,
Ion
sayb
♡ 143 ( +1 | -1 )
Nothing about Topalov's story strikes me as particularly odd other than the network cable in the ceiling.
If the network cable would have any plausibility it would be because there was a private room right ABOVE that bathroom that Kramnik would have access to. And if that were the case, Topalov and his manager would definitely have raised a fuss about that. (The only argument against that logic is that Topalov and Danilov were pressured to keep their mouths shut. That's stretching it a bit. Possible but a stretch) Plus where was the computer for the network cable? That could have been in the ceiling too (a laptop of course) and removed promptly afterwards, but that's a big stretch.
I just find the frequent bathroom visits strange, I don't think Kramnik is strong enough to beat Topalov, I really don't, and I've found Kramnik's behavior very shady for the past years.
He spent his LIFE preparing to be the only player to defeat Kasparov in a match. Then he refused a rematch. Then he dodged and ducked every super tournament he was invited to for a long while claiming health problems. Finally he surfaces again for awhile before a match, robs the title again, and I'll bet before long he'll be fading into the shadows again.
Maybe he didn't cheat and just wanted Topa to get the impression he was. Almost as bad.
bucklehead
♡ 94 ( +1 | -1 )
Here's the "proof" As far as I can discern, the evidence presented by the Topalov camp consists of this article in the newspaper "Trud" : -> www.trud.bg
My Russian is weak and not entirely helpful here, but it's clear that they call the wire in question an "internet cable" (кабел за интернет); though, interestingly, they do not show the END of the cable, which (if Topa's claim is to be taken seriously) should have some sort of terminator to allow connection to an electronic device.
PS: If Kasparov wanted a rematch, he should have insisted on including that in the Braingames match contract. But since he was sure he'd win, he didn't want a sour-grapes Vladimir knocking on his door. The Greeks called this "hubris."
yanm
♡ 45 ( +1 | -1 )
chessbase The interview cited above has been published in chessbase -> chessbase.com (comparing his case with that spy murdered in England, that's really pitiful IMHO)
I think that if Topalov's team has *real* proofs (not suspicions) they should put them forth, or shut up. Otherwise they are guilty of what is called a libel...
caro-kann
♡ 44 ( +1 | -1 )
That has given thought I supposed the constant goings to the bathroom may be suspicious, but maybe in all the nervousness, Kramnik went to the toilet to ease his nerves, came back refreshed and played better! On a different note, still on accusing players, there was a chess game between two high ranked players where one guy suspected the other of cheating by getting codes in his yogurt!!!! The tournament's solution? Allow the accused player to only eat one type of yogurt!
ionadowman
♡ 38 ( +1 | -1 )
Karpov-Korchnoi ... ... one of their matches. I can't recall who was eating the yoghurt.
All of which doesn't give chess - particularly proffessional chess - a whole lot of cred, really. These kinds of goings on, together with the advent of computer games able to beat the best, means that Big Buck Professional Chess hasn't much longer to live, whence comes to that.
Too bad.