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zoobrenok 33 ( +1 | -1 )
Analize this! Deep Fritz – Vladimir Kramnik

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. O-O Nxe4 5. d4 Nd6 6. Bxc6 dxc6 7. dxe5 Nf5 8. Qxd8+ Kxd8 9. Nc3 h6 10. b3 Ke8 11. Bb2 Be7 12. Rad1 a5 13. a4 h5 14. Ne2 Be6 15. c4 Rd8 16. h3 b6 17. Nfd4 Nxd4 18. Nxd4 c5 19. Nxe6 fxe6 20. Rxd8+ Kxd8 21. Bc1 Kc8 22. Rd1 Rd8 23. Rxd8+ Kxd8 24. g4 g6 25. h4 hxg4 26. Bg5 Bxg5 27. hxg5 Ke8 28. Kg2

Game just ended in a draw. Anyone else is following up with this match?
getoutofhere 18 ( +1 | -1 )
very nice I liked the fact that this position is very obviously
drawn even to a patzer like myself, but deep Fritz
couldn't tell that it would be
philaretus 15 ( +1 | -1 )
Thanks... .....for jogging my memory, zoobrenok. I'd intended to follow this match on brainsinbahrain.com
acne 3 ( +1 | -1 )
i suggest that's a draw
philaretus 24 ( +1 | -1 )
A fairly dull game.... .....with a few little tactical pleasantries ( 25...Bxh4?? 26.g5, trapping the bishop). Neither side was able to make any impression. But drawing with the Black pieces is a good result for Kramnik. I'm curious to see how he will handle the White pieces.
brunetti 123 ( +1 | -1 )
I followed the match at FICS, and got very surprised about the silly 25.h4. It allows the immediate draw, while White may and should play on following the "simple" plan of Kg2-f3-e4 and f2-f4(-f5). Black has 2 weaknesses in this position: queenside pawns stuck on dark squares, like the Bishop, and the White's passed pawn (that he may create on the kingside).

I spent 3 hours of analysis and yet I haven't explored all the possibilities, but until now White always wins. I will post the full analysis when it will be complete...

My big doubt is why DF chose the draw-now move while it thoughts it was ahead, instead of the cleverer above plan, which may even be a draw, but is far more complex, requires a lot of calculations and White will never lose while Black have to play with absolute precision to avoid - or procrastinate - the loss.

h4, instead, leads to the immediate blocking of all the pawns; one plays that move ONLY if he wants to draw. And Fritz7 doesn't play that move in that position (people has tested the position)!

Furthermore, the trap is not a trap! After 25...Bxh4! 26.g5 Bxf2+ 27.Kxf2 White's King can't go anywhere, and any Bishop sacrifice will lead to a simple pawn ending won by Black (thanks to the h5 pawn).

Alex
philaretus 34 ( +1 | -1 )
Game 2: Victory for the human race! Kramnik,V (2807) - Deep Fritz [D27]
Brains in Bahrain Man-Machine Match. Manama (2), 06.10.2002

1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 e6 5.Bxc4 c5 6.0-0 a6 7.dxc5 Qxd1 8.Rxd1 Bxc5 9.Kf1 b5 10.Be2 Bb7 11.Nbd2 Nbd7 12.Nb3 Bf8 13.a4 b4 14.Nfd2 Bd5 15.f3 Bd6 16.g3 e5 17.e4 Be6 18.Nc4 Bc7 19.Be3 a5 20.Nc5 Nxc5 21.Bxc5 Nd7 22.Nd6+ Kf8 23.Bf2 Bxd6 24.Rxd6 Ke7 25.Rad1 Rhc8 26.Bb5 Nc5 27.Bc6 Bc4+ 28.Ke1 Nd3+ 29.R1xd3 Bxd3 30.Bc5 Bc4 31.Rd4+ Kf6 32.Rxc4 Rxc6 33.Be7+ Kxe7 34.Rxc6 Kd7 35.Rc5 f6 36.Kd2 Kd6 37.Rd5+ Kc6 38.Kd3 g6 39.Kc4 g5 40.h3 h6 41.h4 gxh4 42.gxh4 Ra7 43.h5 Ra8 44.Rc5+ Kb6 45.Rb5+ Kc6 46.Rd5 Kc7 47.Kb5 b3 48.Rd3 Ra7 49.Rxb3 Rb7+ 50.Kc4 Ra7 51.Rb5 Ra8 52.Kd5 Ra6 53.Rc5+ Kd7 54.b3 Rd6+ 55.Kc4 Rd4+ 56.Kc3 Rd1 57.Rd5+ 1-0




brunetti 41 ( +1 | -1 )
Again Deep Fritz proved to have a very weak understanding of the endgame. In a drawn position, after 38.Kd3, it decided to destroy its kingside pawns, creating weaknesses (with its 38th and 39th moves), after that White's active pieces win easily.
This demonstrates that if the human can avoid tactical complications and go into a strategical endgame, computers are not yet a valuable help :)

Alex
More: Chess
cpocf 1 ( +1 | -1 )
bRUNETTI You are too much! :)
honololou 8 ( +1 | -1 )
Is Deep Fritz better… than the program that beat Kasparov? Have these two programs met?
v_glorioso12 20 ( +1 | -1 )
how could a program as strong as deep fritz lose in a pretty much drawn endgame? what is the world coming to? remember, this is what is going to take over the human race one day.........
zoobrenok 59 ( +1 | -1 )
program is not human it only does what other humans told it to do. until we have real e-intellect, humans have a chance!

i think kramnik utilized fact that he is not playing a human but program for 100% so far -- and i think he also would've played differently against the human, but when it is a computer, he suspects how computer thinks (not exact combination, but rather on what kind of game program wants to see) and uses it.

i also think that if kramnik wins against the program, then kasparov will learn from him and also will be able to win against the computer.
alar 73 ( +1 | -1 )
Brunetti "My big doubt is why DF chose the draw-now move while it thoughts it was ahead, instead of the cleverer above plan, which may even be a draw, but is far more complex, requires a lot of calculations and White will never lose while Black have to play with absolute precision to avoid - or procrastinate - the loss. "
May be DF don't want to get tired? Is his plan playing dull, get easy draws and only go for the victory if he looks a good opportunity?

Thanks Brunetti for your allways extraordinaries posts.

Honololou: I read that Deep Blue does'nt exist anymore. His (?) power came from a great hardware. They say that Deep Fritz is a better program but running in a less powerfull machine.
alar 23 ( +1 | -1 )
Brunetti again "Deep Fritz proved to have a very weak understanding of the endgame. In a drawn position, after 38.Kd3, it decided to destroy its kingside pawns, creating weaknesses"
Do you know if there is a human operator who decides the move?
dozer 36 ( +1 | -1 )
I have found out that if game against a computer goes to an endgame that is not in it's database, and there are still many pawns and some pieces, the computer playes weakly, because it can't think abstractly. The win is usually beyond it's horizon! It can maybe play materially the best moves for some 10+ moves (the calculation is usually based on material strength) but not positionally...
atrifix 117 ( +1 | -1 )
Fritz ""My big doubt is why DF chose the draw-now move while it thoughts it was ahead, instead of the cleverer above plan, which may even be a draw, but is far more complex, requires a lot of calculations and White will never lose while Black have to play with absolute precision to avoid - or procrastinate - the loss. "
May be DF don't want to get tired? Is his plan playing dull, get easy draws and only go for the victory if he looks a good opportunity? "

Of course, modern computers such as Deep Fritz don't come up with such intricate plans. Computers still place a hefty value on material in relation to other factors, and Fritz in all probability evaluated its advantage after 25. h4 to be about a pawn up, since there was no immediate draw (the kings can run around for a long time). It probably didn't realize that there was no way for White to convert his pawn plus. Fritz can't come up with 'plans' of 'exploiting weaknesses', etc. I haven't tested the position with various versions of Fritz, but I would expect that most Fritz engines evaluate White as winning after 25. h4 (even though it is obviously drawn to any human player).
alar 5 ( +1 | -1 )
correction I mean Kramnick -not DF- don't want to get tired.
Sorry.
philaretus 41 ( +1 | -1 )
The endgame.... .....proves once more to be the machine's Achilles' heel:

Deep Fritz - Kramnik,V (2807) [C45]
Brains in Bahrain Man-Machine Match. Manama (3), 08.10.2002

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Bc5 5.Nxc6 Qf6 6.Qd2 dxc6 7.Nc3 Ne7 8.Qf4 Be6 9.Qxf6 gxf6 10.Na4 Bb4+ 11.c3 Bd6 12.Be3 b6 13.f4 0-0-0 14.Kf2 c5 15.c4 Nc6 16.Nc3 f5 17.e5 Bf8 18.b3 Nb4 19.a3 Nc2 20.Rc1 Nxe3 21.Kxe3 Bg7 22.Nd5 c6 23.Nf6 Bxf6 24.exf6 Rhe8 25.Kf3 Rd2 26.h3 Bd7 27.g3 Re6 28.Rb1 Rxf6 29.Be2 Re6 30.Rhe1 Kc7 31.Bf1 b5 32.Rec1 Kb6 33.b4 cxb4 34.axb4 Re4 35.Rd1 Rxd1 36.Rxd1 Be6 37.Bd3 Rd4 38.Be2 Rxd1 39.c5+ Kb7 40.Bxd1 a5 41.bxa5 Ka6 42.Ke3 Kxa5 43.Kd4 b4 44.g4 fxg4 45.hxg4 b3 46.Kc3 Ka4 47.Kb2 f6 48.Bf3 Kb5 49.g5 f5 50.Kc3 Kxc5 0-1
dronus 0 ( +1 | -1 )
41...b4!
paolo 23 ( +1 | -1 )
Someone in Chessbase should not be that happy.

DF is playing very badly, throwing away good positions and missing chances.

Maybe they have set their program to play with an "anti-human" style.

zoobrenok 4 ( +1 | -1 )
draw any thoughts on draw in last game?
tulkos 0 ( +1 | -1 )
and what about the win now?
philaretus 31 ( +1 | -1 )
The Machine strikes back! Deep Fritz - Kramnik,V (2807) [A00]
Brains in Bahrain Man-Machine. Manama, Bahrain (5), 13.10.2002

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.Nc3 Be7 5.Bg5 h6 6.Bh4 0-0 7.e3 Ne4 8.Bxe7 Qxe7 9.cxd5 Nxc3 10.bxc3 exd5 11.Qb3 Rd8 12.c4 dxc4 13.Bxc4 Nc6 14.Be2 b6 15.0-0 Bb7 16.Rfc1 Rac8 17.Qa4 Na5 18.Rc3 c5 19.Rac1 cxd4 20.Nxd4 Rxc3 21.Rxc3 Rc8 22.Rxc8+ Bxc8 23.h3 g6 24.Bf3 Bd7 25.Qc2 Qc5 26.Qe4 Qc1+ 27.Kh2 Qc7+ 28.g3 Nc4 29.Be2 Ne5 30.Bb5 Bxb5 31.Nxb5 Qc5 32.Nxa7 Qa5 33.Kg2 Qxa2 34.Nc8 Qc4 35.Ne7+ 1-0