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refutor 58 ( +1 | -1 )
analysis board #407236" target="_blank">gameknot.com/chess.pl?board #407236

i wonder if anyone would be kind enough to take a look at my game. did i miss any chance to get a real advantage? is there somewhere else where i could've pressed for an advantage? did i overlook some main strategic thing? i don't like the idea that black has nothing to worry about in the open berlin ;)
poisonedpawn78 35 ( +1 | -1 )
refutor .. i will check the rest of your game out tomorrow when i have time and post my anotation of it if you like ..

however my first observation of the final position is that infact you got off lucky .. as black still has the win here .. but could not see it apparently . the simple continuation Ke5 for black followed by Kf5 wins ... accepting the draw by repeat was by far a mistake on his part .
poisonedpawn78 342 ( +1 | -1 )
here it is ... 1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 Nc6
3. Bb5 Nf6
4. O-O Nxe4 ( brutal move by black , this pawn should never be taken , it leads to many lines where black has disadvantages )
5. d4 Nd6 ( better for white is Nc3 , it leads to a sharper line where white can gain winning chances almost imediately , best black can do is give white a huge development advantage . )
6. Bxc6 dxc6
7. dxe5 Nf5
8. Qxd8+ Kxd8 ( ? a queen trade just to stop black from castling ? surely the queen can be used for something more dangerous than a frivolous thing as this ... keep her around and do some dmg )
9. Rd1+ Ke8 (a pointless check as it gets nothing acomplished besides moving the rook to the open file ... better would be to develop the peices blocking the other rook .. perhaps Nc3 , or bg5 )
10. Nc3 Be6
11. b3 Be7
12. Bb2 Rd8
13. h3 h5
14. Rxd8+ Kxd8 ( this is in a way bad for white ... white should maintain the tension and let black tradet he rooks if he wants , white will retake with his other rook bringing it to the useful file , keeping blacks king blocking his other rook ... by trading here in this manner .. white is infact helping black . better is Ne4 )
15. Rd1+ Kc8
16. a4 Rd8 (a4 doesnt really accomplish much , white needs to get into an attack with Ne4 )
17. Rxd8+ Kxd8
18. Ne4 b6
19. Neg5 Kd7
20. Nxe6 Kxe6
21. Kf1 b5
22. axb5 cxb5 ( why ? by taking on his terms you eliminate his weakness ... i think its better for white to let black take on the a or push .. or simply maintain the tension ... )
23. Ke2 a5
24. Nd4+ Nxd4+ ( white really needs to avoid tradeoffs in this manner that do not accomplish anything except get peices off the board , clearly white feels safer with few peices . however so is black ! much better is to keep the peices on the board and wait for or to make something happen better is g4 )
25. Bxd4 f6
26. exf6 Bxf6
27. Bxf6 Kxf6 (and with this last peice exchange goes any hopes for white of a win , unless black blunders , as his pawns tructure is too passive )
28. Kd3 Ke5
29. g3 c6
30. c4 g6 ( better for black is g5)
31. h4 a4 (this is whites biggest mistake of the game , it leads to bxc4 kxc4 Ke4 which ends up in a pawn race for queens with black having an extra pawn )
32. cxb5 cxb5
33. b4 Kd5 ( the losing mistake for black , here he should play a3 , leading to the win , as whites king must race for the pawn , black can grab the pawns and queen first to stop whites queen he has a pawn left over and will queen it with no problem as whites king is way on the other side of the board . )
34. f3 Ke5
35. Kc3 Kd5
36. Kd3 Ke5
37. Kc3 Kd5
38. Kd3 1/2-1/2

there is a very good lesson to be learned from this game .. of what happens when you trade peices off without gaining advantages .. befor you know it .. its all even and your oponent may be the one with the best chances ... do not trade off peices blindly just because you feel safer ... you will never improve .. try playing games where when offered a simpled trade with no gain .. decline it and move away or to a different attacking spot .. you really need all your peices to create and take advantages of things like pins , do not trade queens because it stops a player from castling .. UNLESS you can gain an immediate attack that will win you material , this does not include useless checks . try to save the checks until something useful can be done with it .. besides having your opponents king move a square ...

i hope this helps you .



More: Chess
atrifix 78 ( +1 | -1 )
Analysis 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. 0-0 Nxe4 5. d4 Nd6 6. Bxc6 bxc6 7. dxe5 Nf5 8. Qxd8+ Kxd8 9. Rd1+ Ke6

Disagree with poisonedpawn. This is all theory and part of the perfectly sound Berlin Defense. If the World Chess Champion plays this against Kasparov, it can't be that bad :)

10. Nc3 Be6 11. b3 Be7 12. Bb2 Rd8 13. h3 h5 14. Rxd8+ Kxd8 15. Rd1+ Kc8 16. a4 Rd8

16. a4 isn't too useful. More often this is played to prevent an ...a5-a4 from black. 16. Ne4 was slightly better.

17. Rxd8+ Kxd8 18. Ne4 b6?! 19. Neg5 Kd7 20. Nxe6 Kxe6 21. Kf1

Anytime between here and the 24th move you could have played g4! (for example, 21. g4 hxg4 22. hxg4 Nh6 23. Nd4+ Kxe5 24. Nxc6+ Kd6 25. Nxa7 Nxg4 26. Nc6+ Kd7 27. Nxe7 Kxe7 28. Bxg7 leads to an ending with good winning chances)

21... b5 22. axb5 cxb5 23. Ke2 a5 24. Nd4+? (24. g4) Nxd4+ 25. Bxd4 f6 26. exf6 Bxf6 27. Bxf6? Kxf6 28. Kd3 Ke5 29. g3 c6 30. c4 g6 31. h4 a4? (31... bxc4+ 32. bxc4 a4) 32. cxb5 cxb5 33. b4 Kd5? (33... a3) 34. f3 Ke5 35. Kc3 Kd5 36. Kd3 Ke5 37. Kc3 Kd5?? (37... a3! 38. Kb3 Kd4 39. Ka3 Ke3 and wins). 38. Kd3 1/2-1/2.
tonlesu 8 ( +1 | -1 )
38. Kd3 1/2-1/2 ? How about 38. Kd3 a3! 39. Kc3 a2 40.Kb2 Kd4 and wins! Or White could play differently and lose differently.
brunetti 559 ( +1 | -1 )
This game resembles the first Deep Fritz-Kramnik one, with the same first 8 moves, some transpositions from move 9, and a similar middlegame.

Poisonedpawn78's notes are misleading:

"4...Nxe4 ( brutal move by black , this pawn should never be taken , it leads to many lines where black has disadvantages )"

The move is the best try for White, and it's played by world champions too (as atrifix noted).

"5. d4 ( better for white is Nc3 , it leads to a sharper line where white can gain winning chances almost imediately , best black can do is give white a huge development advantage ."

No. 5.d4 is universally reckoned as the best move. Alternatives 5.Re1 and 5.Qe2 leads to nothing. 5.Nc3 is not a known move, hardly leading to "immediate winning chances".

"8. Qxd8+ Kxd8 ( ? a queen trade just to stop black from castling ? surely the queen can be used for something more dangerous than a frivolous thing as this ... keep her around and do some dmg )"

Again 8.Qxd8 is the best move here. Accepted theory says: "After this trade it won't be easy for Black's King to find an optimal square".
8.Qe2 has been tried, but even the great Fischer wasn't able to get any kind of advantage - playing against Nejkirh, not properly a top GM!

"9. Rd1+ Ke8 (a pointless check as it gets nothing acomplished besides moving the rook to the open file ... better would be to develop the peices blocking the other rook .. perhaps Nc3 , or bg5 )"

This one is correct: Black's King stands better on e8. Correct moves here are 9.Nc3 and 9.b3. Curious note that most computers, if out of book, play the check move.

"14. Rxd8+ Kxd8 ( this is in a way bad for white ... white should maintain the tension and let black tradet he rooks if he wants , white will retake with his other rook bringing it to the useful file , keeping blacks king blocking his other rook ... by trading here in this manner .. white is infact helping black . better is Ne4 )"

If White wants to play the endgame, because of the pawn structure advantage, he can trade rooks, there's nothing wrong in that. It's Black who wants to keep pieces in this position!

"16. a4 Rd8 (a4 doesnt really accomplish much , white needs to get into an attack with Ne4 )"

a4 prevents ...b5. 16.Ne4 leads only to an initiative for Black after 16...Bd5.

18...Bd5 was better than the played 18...b6.

"22. axb5 cxb5 ( why ? by taking on his terms you eliminate his weakness ... i think its better for white to let black take on the a or push .. or simply maintain the tension ... )"

Correct: maintaining the tension would be better.

"24. Nd4+ Nxd4+ ( white really needs to avoid tradeoffs in this manner that do not accomplish anything except get peices off the board , clearly white feels safer with few peices . however so is black ! much better is to keep the peices on the board and wait for or to make something happen better is g4 )"

Here 24.Nd4 is bad for pratical reasons: Bishop ending is probably lost for White, thanks to Black's distant passed pawn and White's weak pawn at e5. This has nothing to do with feeling safer or keeping pieces for principle. 24.g4 would be better, but leads only to a draw.

25...f6 - 25...a4 is faster.

26...Bxf6 - 26...gxf6 is OK too, as both the Bishop and the pawn endings are lost.

"27. Bxf6 Kxf6 (and with this last peice exchange goes any hopes for white of a win , unless black blunders , as his pawns tructure is too passive )"

White hopes of win?? White would be happy to draw after move 24.

29...a4 wins.

"30. c4 g6 ( better for black is g5)"

No. ...g5 is wrong in principle: Black should create his passed pawn in the Queenside, while Kingside's pawns should be kept where they're.

"31. h4 a4 (this is whites biggest mistake of the game , it leads to bxc4 kxc4 Ke4 which ends up in a pawn race for queens with black having an extra pawn )"

No, the game is already lost. The biggest mistake was Nd4.

"33. b4 Kd5 ( the losing mistake for black , here he should play a3 , leading to the win , as whites king must race for the pawn , black can grab the pawns and queen first to stop whites queen he has a pawn left over and will queen it with no problem as whites king is way on the other side of the board . )"

No! Black wins with Kd5 too.

And finally, as tonlesu writes, Black wins easily in the end position (before repeating 3 times of course) with his manouvre or even bringing the King towards Kingside pawns and capturing them.

After that, I don't agree with poisonedpawn78's dogmas too:

"when offered a simpled trade with no gain .. decline it and move away or to a different attacking spot"

No! There's no law that states that you should trade a piece ONLY if you have a gain. And systematically retracting or moving away pieces (avoiding trades) usually leads to positional disadvantages.

"you really need all your peices to create and take advantages of things like pins"

Again, that's not true.

"do not trade queens because it stops a player from castling"

Why? If you like to keep the Queens, it doesn't mean that that trade is incorrect!


In conclusion, please check carefully what you say to beginners, because there's nothing worse than teaching them wrong dogmas and rules.

Alex
More: Chess
refutor 14 ( +1 | -1 )
9.Rd1+ was played to keep the king from seeking safety on the queenside (and to take the open file)...thank you to everyone for your thoughts :)
More: Chess
refutor 30 ( +1 | -1 )
and... polgar played 9.Rd1+ v. kasparov in russia v. the world so although Nc3 and b3 have been analyzed to death b/c of the kasparov-kramnik match i figure i can try and get some mileage out of this...plus the developing 9. ... Be7? loses, so if i can get a point or two out of that trap so be it :) obviously, i was overly optimistic of my endgame chances, thanks again
atrifix 20 ( +1 | -1 )
IMO 9. Rd1+ is fine. Perhaps not the 'strongest' move at the helm of theory, but if an amateur wants to play it, there's no major positional mistake or anything. If the Berlin is drawn anyway, it's just another sideline.
poisonedpawn78 99 ( +1 | -1 )
brunetti .. is probably right ona few of the games analysis as i would never play the berlin , so perhaps i shouldnt have annotated the game .

however i was trying to help white when i saw the game .

I DO disagree with brunetti on what he calls my dogmatic rules ... i did not say these where rules i was making suggestions to refutor to try ... if hes trying to win games he will not win too many by trading off peices in the mannor this game happened . its almost impossible to win so called world champion openings when you are not 100% positionall correct with every move and trading off all of your peices .. i am an attacking player and hate when people play for the draw by constantly trading off peices . so i try to avoid it depending on the situation . i was meerly suggesting to refutor to try the same .

to suggest these where /or are my dogmatic rules was rather incorrect .

instead of d4 .. have you ever tried or looked at Nc3 in length ? its alot better in my opinion . and anyone who would like to setup this position i would play NC3 against .
atrifix 9 ( +1 | -1 )
IMO 5. Nc3 Nxc3 6. dxc3 d6 is advantageous for Black. White is deprived of the d2-d4 break regaining the pawn.
ordinary_man 146 ( +1 | -1 )
excellent annotation by Brunetti. Also good advice about not teaching 'dogmas and rules', I know many players who are virtually trapped in skill level because of some chess principles somebody taught them that they take as if it were some divine law! (e.g.- some rules I have heard at the local club...'always double the pawn, doubled pawns are bad' 'bishops are better than knights unless the knight is past the fourth rank.' 'never bring your queen out early.' etc. These guys really take these guidlines as if they were absolute truth in all positions! So it is rather easy to beat them..:)

I prefer the modern school which relies heavily on the concrete analysis of a position and not on 'rules and principles.' This analytical approach to the game is the foundation of modern opening theory, much of which would look quite strange to the old school classical players. (Imagine Anand, or some other top player going back 100 years and playing the modern defense (1.e4 g6) or some other hypermodern opening which today is known to be sound, but long ago was considered 'bad' because of all the classical principles which governed chess. Imagine the outrage if he actually went on to win with this opening!

I rather like some opening lines which trade pieces early and often if played correctly they can give an advantage...It all depends on the position.
finduriel 71 ( +1 | -1 )
it seems to depend on your individual style. When you're an attacking player it doesn't seem very useful to go for trades early in the game, especially if you - like me - have no clue how to win a pawn endgame or something like that.

I think I've learned a lot from two different views of the same game by two players who are very much better than me, so I really appreciate you took the time (even though it was not my game). Thanks, poisonedpawn78 and brunetti for the time you invested!

Have a good time!

finduriel